{"contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"RachelMaddow"}

Talk Me Down! What other surprises does the bailout contain?

Waaaaay back in September, amid tanking numbers on Wall Street, sky-high unemployment and predictions of certain economic doom, Congress decided to give the banking industry an early Christmas present: 700 billion smackeroonies! No Great Depression! No "It's a Wonderful Life" remakes for the modern holiday season!

Remember that?

Lawmakers fought about it, John McCain fake-suspended his campaign over it, the House failed it once, and then, finally, after the Senate packed it full of pork, it was delivered to Wall Street with a bow on top. But! That's the bailout story you know about; the one you can hold your member of Congress accountable for.

Turns out there's another one. A little addendum. A little sideshow with ten zeroes on the end of it. While the rest of the country was busy wrapping up the $700 billion banking bailout package for Christmas in September, the Treasury Department, under Secretary Henry Paulson, was sneaking its own little gift under the tree. It was no $700 billion but this was a gift that keeps on giving. You see, once upon a time there was a scrappy little law - we'll call him Section 382 of the tax code - and Section 382 told all the corporations that they could not avoid paying their taxes simply by purchasing a failing company. But right in the middle of the bailout chaos, when, apparently, no one was looking (I wasn't. Were you?) the Treasury Department reversed Section 382.

So, Merry Christmas, banks! Don't wanna pay your taxes anymore? That's OK. Just use that $700 billion we just gave you to buy some losing companies as tax shelters! The Washington Post, with details on Paulson's Secret Santa gift, reports today, "The sweeping change to two decades of tax policy escaped the notice of lawmakers for several days, as they remained consumed with the controversial bailout bill. When they found out, some legislators were furious. Some congressional staff members have privately concluded that the notice was illegal."

So... nobody told Congress. And: It might be illegal. Let's see, what else? Oh yeah, members of Congress, even the ones who are steamed because nobody told them about it, even the ones who think it was illegal, many of them are afraid to say anything -much less do anything- about it for fear of further antagonizing the economy.

The Post quotes an unnamed Congressional aide today, who sums it up like this: "We're all nervous about saying this was illegal because of our fears about the marketplace... To the extent we want to try to publicly stop this we're going to be gumming up some important deals."

Oh, and pay no attention to the $140 billion that just got sucked out of your wallet without debate and possibly against the law. That's in addition to the $700 billion Uncle Sam already forked over. Is this "the other shoe" dropping? I hope so. But I can't help but think that a bailout bill so full of ambiguity has at least a few more financial landmines up its sleeve, that the hue and cry about the dangers of giving banks so much money may turn out to have been spot on.

I need to be talked down.

{"contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"RachelMaddow"}
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{"commentId":4010583,"authorDomain":"hippiechick"}

I formally request to change my vote under the Obama To-Do list...

This needs to be first on the list!!! 

Once again, we, the public (and apparently Congress, too) were duped by the Bush administration.  How many other things have been hidden in this Bailout package/economic crisis response?  Obama needs to make this the first target of his scapel. 

:::::shaking my head vehemently::::::

Noon on January 20th, cannot come soon enough. 

{"commentId":4010583,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"hippiechick"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:23 PM EST
{"commentId":4012396,"authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}

And on noon the 20th will you fire Barney I forgot to reed the document Frank?  

People all these problems are to be laid at the feet of the congress. Majority and Minority are corrupt and we need to demand all the legislators in any way associated with the management or legislation MUST BE FIRED - RECALLED and INVESTIGATED.  

And it needs to be on TV and they need to throw the bums in a court room and TRY them all.  Dodd, Gramm, Frank, all of them!

{"commentId":4012396,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}
    #1.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:20 AM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":4010615,"authorDomain":"losta"}

    Who knows what the Bush Administration will be doing the next 70 days except covering their asses and selling off everything they can to oil and mining companies, probably signing multi-year contracts with blackwater and haliburton and the like, giving special gifts to their cronies at banks etc.

    Why can't they just get out of Washington now before they screw up the county even more than they already have?

    {"commentId":4010615,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"losta"}
      Reply#2 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:26 PM EST
      {"commentId":4012401,"authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}

      Quit blaming and start demanding investigations the result will not shock you but they may take the edge of your BUSHtude!

      {"commentId":4012401,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}
        #2.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:22 AM EST
        Reply
        {"commentId":4010722,"authorDomain":"Sassy79"}

        It's just more of the same.  Sweet deals for everyone but the average American trying to survive layoffs, increased expenses, trying to keep up with the mortgage and educated our kids.

        Someone in Congress needs to suddenly grow a back bone and go through each provision in the bailout bill and flush out this garbage. 

        There needs to be accountability and transparency.  If a bank or financial institution is caught spending bailout money on dividends, CEO pay or hoarding the money..should

        1. Lose the money or be fully taxed on what they take

        2. The entire Board of Directors should be personally held responsible

        Additionally someone should challenge this ruling in court (IRS ruling perhaps) to determine the legality.  If this is found not to be legal...everyone associated with the deal should go to prison.

        {"commentId":4010722,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Sassy79"}
        • 1 vote
        Reply#3 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:35 PM EST
        {"commentId":4010808,"authorDomain":"hippiechick"}

        Sassy, with this comment you have earned your moniker.  :)

        {"commentId":4010808,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"hippiechick"}
          #3.1 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST
          {"commentId":4011053,"authorDomain":"Sassy79"}

          I was in banking for 11 years..I know how the weasel's work.  Sad thing is there are many hard working, honest, and high integrity people in banking that are overshadowed by the greed that is prevelant in our society.

          {"commentId":4011053,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Sassy79"}
            #3.2 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:09 PM EST
            {"commentId":4011120,"authorDomain":"Sassy79"}

            Additionally, Bush will be out of office before the ruling will come to the legality of this whole mess.  Once he is gone- don't have to worry about pardons.

            {"commentId":4011120,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Sassy79"}
              #3.3 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:18 PM EST
              {"commentId":4012412,"authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}

              We need Elliot Spitzer, Yes I got a paid date Spitzer appointed to the Federal AG office and give him a Badge with the power to charge anyone in office or out.

              Elliot Spitzer, the fallen ex-governor of New York, will not face criminal charges for his involvement with a prostitution ring, US federal prosecutors said this month!

              Wall Street Hates this guy! They Fear him and they set him up.  I say anoint him, arm him and set him lose NOW!

              PS.. base him in Nevada where the girls are Government approved and we can audit his use of Government Funds!!

              {"commentId":4012412,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}
                #3.4 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:26 AM EST
                {"commentId":4028784,"authorDomain":"PANeal"}

                I agree that we need to expect more from Congress and quit expecting the President to give us a quick fix for every problem that befalls us.  It feels to me like the country is running around like a chicken with its head cut off, dropping a few hundred billion here, a few hundred billion there and then saying we don't have the tens of billions needed for stuff that is really important. 

                It is probably inevitible after eight years of sending money hands over fists to the millionaires that there will be a really bad recession.  Let's slow down and take our medicine and invest in the future.  Let's take the time to read what Bush has pushed through and get it right next time.  We have four years, you know.  And if we do it right we will have eight or twenty...  Let's think about our children and grandchildren, not just ourselves.

                {"commentId":4028784,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"PANeal"}
                • 1 vote
                #3.5 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:12 AM EST
                Reply
                {"commentId":4011022,"authorDomain":"pamela-ravenwood"}

                People will look back on Bush's time in history and question why nobody was guarding the hen house with the fox inside. As a meer citizen, it is quite frustrating how these things happen. I don't understand the complexity of them but with all of the elected officials we have in place, surely somebody does and where, over the past eight years, have been such people, to watch our backs? It seems the acts Bush has been a part of and lead, are criminal, and yet....

                {"commentId":4011022,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"pamela-ravenwood"}
                • 1 vote
                Reply#4 - Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:06 PM EST
                {"commentId":4012430,"authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}

                Every uses a Bush to beat this problem why?  WAKE UP the budgets and laws are written in the congress run by Democrats.  Get that! Democrats!

                {"commentId":4012430,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}
                  #4.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:30 AM EST
                  {"commentId":4013523,"authorDomain":"pamela-ravenwood"}

                  Didn't I just say the blame lay with elected officials? Being that Bush was/is president, he has all of the responsibility lying on him - that is why he gets the big nametag. We all know Bush is too stupid to pull all of the ridiculous events he has pulled off in the last eight years by himself.

                  {"commentId":4013523,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"pamela-ravenwood"}
                    #4.2 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:34 AM EST
                    Reply
                    {"commentId":4011729,"authorDomain":"tylerme721"}

                    One reason i gave Obama the charge to have a Litmus Test on his Treasury appointment=

                    "Do you accept the economic truth that "Trickle-Down" economics never trickles down to the Middle-Strata Business Owner?"

                    If neither Geithner nor Summers accepts that truth then they are no good to Obama's policy!

                    Most financial structures operate as a part of a 'club' so to speak and only move liquid assets where they benefit the 2% of our population that control 98% of our national wealth. Both of these guys come from Paulson's 'club' -thus- the Litmus Test.

                    {"commentId":4011729,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"tylerme721"}
                      Reply#5 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:41 AM EST
                      {"commentId":4011760,"authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}

                      Does it ever stop, just when you think this administration couldn't possibly sink any lower, they pull another one out of their hat.  And Congress too, they don't want to "further antagonize the economy", don't they realize it is past that point. Don't they get that not doing anything is worse, Paulson and his team are just going to keep pushing the envelope until somebody grows some stones and says ENOUGH!  They already screwed up by passing a bailout bill which had basically no restrictions, transparency or accountability.  Why do we the taxpayers keep getting screwed by the people we elected to represent our interests!  

                      {"commentId":4011760,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}
                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#6 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:45 AM EST
                      {"commentId":4012436,"authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}

                      Again another Dodo realization.  It is the Congress that made this mess not BUSH BUSH in the BUSH.

                      And the reason we keep getting the short end of the stick is because of the FED it has made you via the congress cooperation a TAX SLAVE. They use the IRS to collect interest payments made to overseas investors that fund the US economy.

                      FIRE your CONGRESS MAN/WOMAN and SENATORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                      {"commentId":4012436,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"ispeedtoo"}
                        #6.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:32 AM EST
                        {"commentId":4014545,"authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}

                        It wasn't the Congress who reversed the tax code in question here, it was the Treasury Department.  While the whole financial mess is attributable to many, the thing I was railing against in my previous post was the fact that this administration really has no regard for law or anyone's interests but their own.  It has been a pattern with them to wait for the sh** to hit the fan and then use that to pull off some shady things.  And if Congress again, like many times before (Patriot Act, the FISA bill, the bailout etc.), don't see the ramifications of inaction and don't consider a careful course of action, then I agree with you - let's fire them.  

                        {"commentId":4014545,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}
                          #6.2 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:54 AM EST
                          Reply
                          {"commentId":4011919,"authorDomain":"SSrb1098"}

                          I would be interested to know where you got this information.

                          {"commentId":4011919,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"SSrb1098"}
                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#7 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:09 AM EST
                          {"commentId":4012348,"authorDomain":"kahaire"}

                          I am not sure if you are asking about the information on the bailout bill or this tax code change.  The link to the Washington Post article on the tax change that Rachel mentioned, though, is here:

                          http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/09/AR2008110902155_pf.html

                          {"commentId":4012348,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"kahaire"}
                          • 2 votes
                          #7.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:04 AM EST
                          Reply
                          {"commentId":4012340,"authorDomain":"kahaire"}

                          This really pisses me off, but I can't honestly say that I am surprised.  I expect these guys to pull such stunts at every opportunity.

                          I am not even going to try to talk Rachel down because I agree with her.  But here's a slight ray of hope: if the Treasury could just change this without Congressional approval, then the new Treasury Secretary can change it right back on January 21, 2009.  And if it is found to be illegal, then the new Treasury can stop this in its tracks.  

                          As for the rest of the bailout, Congress definitely needs to strictly enforce the rules it set.  They definitely need to grow a backbone, and quick!

                          And as for saying they are afraid to make this public because of fears for the marketplace - Guy's, it's public now!  And the sky didn't fall in!  So go and undo this crap before the marketplace freaks out at your complete lack of control over the situation!  If Congress can't even stop/reverse this, then how can they be expected to provide any REAL oversight of the bailout?

                          {"commentId":4012340,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"kahaire"}
                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#8 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:02 AM EST
                          {"commentId":4409196,"authorDomain":"quenceblueye"}

                          I guess I kind of misread this thing the first time around although I do stand by what I said before in regards to: "what is done can be undone." As for the legality of reversing a law without legislative approval? We may be looking at a page being taken out of Andrew Jackson's playbook where the executive branch simply refused to enforce the law. Is it right to do this? Most likely not. Will there be a great deal of damage done? In this case, I don't think so. I think the banks and other financial institutions now have even more reason to be accomodating to the demands of the U.S. Government.

                          {"commentId":4409196,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"quenceblueye"}
                          • 1 vote
                          #8.1 - Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:26 PM EST
                          Reply
                          {"commentId":4012610,"authorDomain":"mrhobbs"}

                          Looks really simple to me. Paulson's probably going to get a nice seat on the board of oh maybe Wells Fargo?

                          {"commentId":4012610,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"mrhobbs"}
                            Reply#9 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:50 AM EST
                            {"commentId":4013980,"authorDomain":"palabrachos"}

                            How about this, Screw the banks and the members that facilitated this heist.  Marketplace?  What Marketplace?  The same one that gains value as we loose jobs?  How about we line up what we as a people can suffer though and for how long next to those pampered babies that have to have their billions to survive.  @!$%#! Let them eat crap for a while, skip a meal, scrounge for change.  I know we can last longer than they can.  Let them fail!  Enough!  If you are too big to fail, then you are too big to exist. 

                            This is not funny anymore, someone needs to go to jail. Congress, get your marshmellow ass over there and do what you were elected to do.

                            {"commentId":4013980,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"palabrachos"}
                              Reply#10 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:12 AM EST
                              {"commentId":4015001,"authorDomain":"smith-j"}

                               I think it's going to be a long time yet before we actually find politicians who can remember the first three words to the Preamble, who they represent, and will actually look out for our wellbeing. Shady characters wear red or blue, there's no party affiliation when it comes to putting yourself #1 and looking for your own interests.  Congress needs to get in the mindset of the people who elected them..and finally, please, do the right thing.

                              {"commentId":4015001,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"smith-j"}
                                Reply#11 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:22 AM EST
                                {"commentId":4020612,"authorDomain":"brian527"}

                                No talking anyone down on this mess and you can put that with the big wigs from AIG going on another travel junkit to the tune of 340.000 dollars of tax payer money. I bet most of the comanys that did get bailout money are all tied to a member of our great congress in one way or the other. I voted for Obama but I am starting to think not even he will be able to fix this mess.

                                {"commentId":4020612,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"brian527"}
                                  Reply#12 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:33 PM EST
                                  {"commentId":4023158,"authorDomain":"crose2244"}

                                  our family is in  an unknown class-we are not upper class-are not middle class-but are not lower class=we are in a precarious position.all our bills keep going up(our mortgage just went up $270 per month).i am a retired teacher and work parttime at a building supply(i can not find a good fulltime job because of my age-my wife works a fulltime and parttime job).we make too much to get help from the government or anything.we are barely getting by but in a few months will be in a bind.i know millions of other families are in the same boat of having no class.what are we to do?where can we get help?

                                  {"commentId":4023158,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"crose2244"}
                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#13 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:07 PM EST
                                  {"commentId":4023516,"authorDomain":"crose2244"}

                                  our family is in  an unknown class-we are not upper class-are not middle class-but are not lower class=we are in a precarious position.all our bills keep going up(our mortgage just went up $270 per month).i am a retired teacher and work parttime at a building supply(i can not find a good fulltime job because of my age-my wife works a fulltime and parttime job).we make too much to get help from the government or anything.we are barely getting by but in a few months will be in a bind.i know millions of other families are in the same boat of having no class.what are we to do?where can we get help?

                                  {"commentId":4023516,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"crose2244"}
                                    Reply#14 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:33 PM EST
                                    {"commentId":4024138,"authorDomain":"portsea"}

                                    I am a bit confused about all the late hoopla over this issue.  It was widely reported as one of the reasons why Wells Fargo was able to come back in and steal Wachovia from Citi.  The rule change occurred in-between Wells walking away from the Wachovia deal and Wells coming back in with a better bid and made the aquisition of the entire bank much more attractive for Wells allowing them to up the bid.  Citi would not have been eligible for the tax break as their offer was not a merger.

                                    As it was part of such a high-profile event, why is Rachel just noticing it now?

                                    {"commentId":4024138,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"portsea"}
                                      Reply#15 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:17 PM EST
                                      {"commentId":4025074,"authorDomain":"trose"}

                                      Does anyone know where I can apply for bailout money for my student loan????????  It is a small amount of money compared to millions others are getting.

                                      {"commentId":4025074,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"trose"}
                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#16 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:39 PM EST
                                      {"commentId":4025415,"authorDomain":"hippiechick"}

                                      LOL!

                                      {"commentId":4025415,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"hippiechick"}
                                        #16.1 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:15 PM EST
                                        {"commentId":4025550,"authorDomain":"trose"}

                                        you laugh.....but I'm serious....hahahahahahahaha

                                        {"commentId":4025550,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"trose"}
                                          #16.2 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:27 PM EST
                                          {"commentId":4026629,"authorDomain":"palabrachos"}

                                          How about a class-action bailout of student loans.  Sign me up!

                                          {"commentId":4026629,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"palabrachos"}
                                            #16.3 - Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:11 PM EST
                                            {"commentId":4040760,"authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}

                                            Me too! Actually not a bad idea! haha

                                            {"commentId":4040760,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"Pocassetnyer"}
                                              #16.4 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:48 PM EST
                                              {"commentId":4041599,"authorDomain":"trose"}

                                              How do we get our student loan paid off?????  Maybe we can offer to provide public service.  Like teach adults to read. I need my slice of pie now.  Maybe we should talk to Bush he has no clue whats going on.  He will give us anything we want. 

                                              Student loan relief aid 2009!!!!!

                                              I can use the extra money to go on a vacation!!!!

                                              {"commentId":4041599,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"trose"}
                                                #16.5 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:58 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                {"commentId":4027519,"authorDomain":"nhoover"}

                                                Well. With millions going into bailouts, when will this hit my side ( a single male with a 4.0 gpa and no money to go to a college). I'm sorry I was raised in a middle class family. How does this government expect to get it's country out of debt, when it's children can't even afford to go to school, to get good jobs, to buy new things? Maybe they should lay this tax free money into school systems, and not the banks. No child left behind? That was simply a kick in the face to anyone not left behind. I won't blame Bush for our current economic times, because no one person can screw up the country that bad. Elected officials in general need to be accountable for their idiotic ideas. America needs to grow a pair and start standing up to it's government. What was that saying again...a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Where's that government?

                                                {"commentId":4027519,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"nhoover"}
                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#17 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:58 AM EST
                                                {"commentId":4030968,"authorDomain":"nito"}

                                                I just read in the NY Times, that American Express now wants a piece of the pie!

                                                Why not bail-out Visa and Mastercard while we're at it?

                                                Or maybe just allow them to charge everyone whatever loan-shark interest-rates they would like to impose on the middle-class??

                                                Are we really just going to have to sit here for another 68 days while the Bushies steal the silverware?

                                                {"commentId":4030968,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"nito"}
                                                  Reply#18 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:32 AM EST
                                                  {"commentId":4033983,"authorDomain":"jeffersoniii"}

                                                  "escaped the notice of lawmakers for several days"

                                                  "nobody told them about it"

                                                  The BANKING COMMITTEE staffers needed details of this publicly discussed financial package from someone else? 

                                                  If they're not there for oversight...

                                                  CYA!

                                                  {"commentId":4033983,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"jeffersoniii"}
                                                    Reply#19 - Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:15 PM EST
                                                    {"commentId":4071260,"authorDomain":"DanielaPrincessofPT"}

                                                    The 700+billion bailout is socialism for corporations. Allowing the auto industry to fail and be made to pay the price for their lack of innovation and poor business decisions is ludicrous. Keep in mind those millions upon millions of individuals who did not make corporate management decisions and who would be out of a job and all the households that would be left without an income.
                                                     
                                                    Every argument made against aiding the auto companies can be made against the big banks. Why are financial firms not held to the same standard for their massive failures as you propose the auto companies should be?

                                                    I have an extremely difficult time understanding why the financial institutions should be rescued, but not the automotive industry. Did both not market subordinate product? How bizarre that so many are so disinclined to government stepping in that you would suggest an industry that is practically one tenth of our economy, be allowed to sink? That is an ideologue above and beyond cognizance.

                                                    The millions of unemployed needing government assistance would cost in excess 50 billion in the end. Displacing lifelong manufacturing workers well into their middle ages and assuming they can be retrained is absurd when you consider the numbers of families that can't just pick up and move or be expected to support the cost of living with work at a Mickey D's. They will not have a viable income to support themselves and without a productive job and sufficient credit, they won't even qualify for student loans to further their educational capacity if applicable. Not to mention that these days an associates degree is useless and not even likely to procure employment for more than 8-9 bucks an hour. So what do you propose happens to all those people who are minus a livelihood? Let em eat their young as we sanctimoniously lecture them about the failures of the free market economy? The human cost of just letting all three auto companies tank is beyond reproach and definitely far beyond that of Circuit City or any airline.

                                                    {"commentId":4071260,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"DanielaPrincessofPT"}
                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    Reply#20 - Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:58 PM EST
                                                    {"commentId":4387784,"authorDomain":"quenceblueye"}

                                                    Okay Rachel,

                                                    This time I am going to try to talk you down (as opposed to the last time I wanted you to talk me down). Along the same lines of this issue I would like to propose a question for you to consider: Would it not be better all around to simply penalize the banks who provided the risky loans to begin with? Of course, I know this question immediately begs the question of How do you penalize the banks without unduly straining the economy?

                                                    I propose that instead of simply allowing the banks to take the money and run we force the banks to reappraise the inflated home values for which they gave out loans and reduce the principles of the individual mortgage holders accordingly; across the board (or more appropriately across the nation.) Why would these banks want to do this? Well, oddly enough this recent reversal of section 382 would appear to have given our government the leverage over the banking industry that it, quite honestly, hasn't had in quite a while. What can be done can be undone, and in this case if more light is shed on this issue the few banks out there that did not need or even want a bailout would still like to keep section 382 in its current state and not have it re-reversed.

                                                    So ultimately, in this scenario, our government could add a beating stick to the rear of the banking industry and also keep the carrot of the $700 billion bailout in its current place.

                                                    Paul Quence Merritt

                                                    P.S. I know this scenario seems simple but if it is followed through it would potentially allow: (1) Individual home-owner's with upside-down mortgages to better make their payments. (2) Banks would not have to foreclose on over-valued mortgages and thus be forced to collect collateral that essentially has no value or even use. And, (3) Making the banks fight to keep 382 in place as it now is will better allow the U.S. Government to leverage the banks into behaving in more desirable ways in the future. 

                                                    {"commentId":4387784,"threadId":"415579","contentId":"2097744","authorDomain":"quenceblueye"}
                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    Reply#21 - Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST
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